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Yes, Opie you seem to know a lot and have learned a lot. My point was that we're way ahead of ourselves. There never was a need for organisation, administration, councils, formal leadership- and worst of all.....formal classes online. All of this was built on a foundation of sand. The collapse was inevitable, and everyone knew it was coming- it was coming when the new SW episodes were finally done. The leadership on several forums (in particular, that one which Starr used to teach at) had good heart, but they were well aware that they'd have trouble in a few years time. The problem as I see it is there were no fundamental changes. It's hard to make changes when newcomers appear, and they sign up to a class. The classes are bulging, creating interest and discussion, and new positions for teachers, and eventually politics takes its toll and leads to division. I'm not claiming to understand the intracacies around the divisions and mergers, but to me they are irrelevant. Because none of it should ever have existed. The good times really were rolling for a few years. Constant growth of the community, but none of it was sustainable. Because eventually, the ideas ran out, and the interest ran out. My beliefs are that people were always teaching what they never really knew. None of us ever really got to the point where we were qualified to teach, and certainly not qualified to take up formal positions. This applies to many offline also (where I came from). Much of what I learned wasn't worth it. It's about going back to basics. Admitting that we really know nothing, freeing ourselves up and seeing what we can do. Don't hold onto false knowledge and then pass it on. Do we really *know* what we can do with the force? Can we really repeat it, time and again? Are we really worth anything at the moment? Take meditation as the classic example. It is a lifetime of study in that discipline. What gives any of us the right to teach it? There are many greater experts in the world. We may say "ah, but we feel the force, we use the force". I believe this is part of the lie. I don't believe we are as far along the road as we would like to think. Nowhere near. We have years, decades of study in other disciplines to catch up on before we can figure out what we're working on. I believe there has always been self-deceit in the community, and this is a perpetuating cycle, and it's very sad. It originates from the role-playing side, which creeps into our sphere and blurs the distinctions between what we can do (nothing) and what we would like to think we can do (a whole heap of things). And, if you can't do anything, that really hurts, because we so much want to be able to feel the force and use it for real. But we can't. We're nowhere near. Let's get back to basics here. That's all I'm really asking. Back to basics. And freedom from un-necessary structure, organisation and desperate desire to make our dreams come true. We have to build for the future, and essentially sacrifice ourselves for that. My views are summed up here: http://p086.ezboard.com/ftheroguejedischoolfrm1.showMessage?topicID=11.topic No this is not an ad for the forum, it's not used anymore and that's how it will stay.

jundal wrote:

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Wow. I'm impressed. First of all, the fact you've managed to resurect a thread eighteen months old, with no replies since the seventeenth of november '06.
Thank you. I had a difficult time digging it up. As a token of your gratitude, I will accept you worshipping me.

Second, i went along to your little forum, and had a browse of the thread you put up, and i have to say that you show an ego bigger than anyone i have ever met. Even Brandel's. And his is big. Really, REALLY big.
LITTLE forum? That is highly damaging to my soul, not to mention my ego.

Every time you are contradicted, you state people do not understand. You say they are twisting your words. No. They are simply telling you how it is.
But you've done exactly the same thing. I enough times that it is not about me. If you can't even see that then you really are twisting my words, and you really are wrong. It's just a case of reading simple text.

And how long have you been our saviour, ready to leap in and say how to become Jedi of the sort we always wanted to be? Are you in fact, our own personal Jesus? The Only Way? You claim it to be axiomatic, that is, to be a self evident truth that requires no proof, but you also missed out the fact that the word Axiom also means 'a universally accepted principle or rule.'
I am not your saviour. Again, you are twisting my words.

Unfortunately Glen, the idea that the only way is in fact, the ONLY way is, quite simply, absolute #**#. Yes, i would agree that we should listen to the force, the little voice inside that tells us what to do when we ask, but to simply forget everything else we know?
Writing "simply" and "absolute" in front of your opinions doesn't make them more worthwhile. You can't spell my name and you can't read my posts. Are you illiterate?

I think not.
I think so.

Your insistence that all of our teachers, all those who have gone before taught lies is... Interesting.
Yes, they lied to themselves and to others. It's not difficult.

You seem to think you are some kind of prophet, ready to take us to enlightenment at the hands of the one true god.
Again, you claim to be aware of people "twisting my words" and then you do it yourself and build up your strawman argument. Really, what I say is not that complicated and it is really self-evident. People have a huge capacity for self-deceit. Let's strip back everything to what we really know and we find it is not really that much at all.

I'm not a prophet, again your misunderstanding is disappointing. I am just describing a process, something very simple. It doesn't need me and it doesn't need you. I don't care if people forget about me, hence why I left for 18 months. I will leave for longer in the future.

Not so. Your one true way, (I say this because it is in fact yours) is an oversimplification, an extension of your own reluctance to learn from others, and quite simply, a self inflicted delusion brought about by the fact that you dislike people telling you you are wrong.
I quite like being told I am wrong. The Way is a simplification but not an oversimplification. You take away what are lies, and keep on going until it hurts, and then go some more. Everyone is emotionally attached to what they have "learned". The point is to get rid of it. It can take some time, because we like clinging to our knowledge, as it makes us feel worthwhile. It's an ongoing process.

Youre like a kid with a new violin refusing to play because hes decided hes mastered it already, so why should he practice? Hes already as good as anyone could be. Well, heres a heads up. You ARE wrong. You have your head up your arse and are speaking in tongues, old chum. Worse than that?
You are wrong again. I haven't mastered anything already. That's the point. I'm not as good as anyone could be. I'm as bad as anyone could be. The difference between me and you is that I'm honest with myself, whereas you are not. Keep living the lie if that's what you want.

You actually believe in your own hype.
I have no hype, I have nothing to do with this. Please, just forget about me and just take a long hard look at the web of dillusion.